(Cross-posted at M-Phi)

In his Two New Sciences (1638), Galileo presents a puzzle about infinite collections of numbers that became known as ‘Galileo’s paradox’. Written in the form of a dialogue, the interlocutors in the text observe that there are many more positive integers than there are perfect squares, but that every positive integer is the root of a given square. And so, there is a one-to-one correspondence between the positive integers and the perfect squares, and thus we may conclude that there are as many positive integers as there are perfect squares. And yet, the initial assumption was that there are more positive integers than perfect squares, as every perfect square is a positive integer but not vice-versa; in other words, the collection of the perfect squares is strictly contained in the collection of the positive integers. How can they be of the same size then?

Galileo’s conclusion is that principles and concepts pertaining to the size of finite collections cannot be simply transposed, mutatis mutandis, to cases of infinity: “the attributes "equal," "greater," and "less," are not applicable to infinite, but only to finite, quantities.” With respect to finite collections, two uncontroversial principles hold:

Part-whole: a collection A that is strictly contained in a collection B has a strictly smaller size than B.

One-to-one: two collections for which there exists a one-to-one correspondence between their elements are of the same size.

What Galileo’s paradox shows is that, when moving to infinite cases, these two principles clash with each other, and thus that at least one of them has to go. In other words, we simply cannot transpose these two basic intuitions pertaining to counting finite collections to the case of infinite collections. As is well known, Cantor chose to keep One-to-one at the expenses of Part-whole, famously concluding that all countable infinite collections are of the same size (in his terms, have the same cardinality); this is still the reigning orthodoxy.

In recent years, an alternative approach to measuring infinite sets is being developed by the mathematicians Vieri Benci (who initiated the project) Mauro Di Nasso, and Marco Forti. It is also being further explored by a number of people – including logicians/philosophers such as Paolo Mancosu, Leon Horsten and my colleague Sylvia Wenmackers. This framework is known as the theory of numerosities, and has a number of theoretical as well as more practical interesting features. The basic idea is to prioritize Part-whole over One-to-one; this is accomplished in the following way (Mancosu 2009, p. 631):

Informally the approach consists in finding a measure of size for countable sets (including thus all subsets of the natural numbers) that satisfies [Part-whole]. The new ‘numbers’ will be called ‘numerosities’ and will satisfy some intuitive principles such as the following: the numerosity of the union of two disjoint sets is equal to the sum of the numerosities.

Basically, what the theory of numerosities does is to introduce different units, so that on these new units infinite sets comes out as finite. (In other words, it is a clever way to turn infinite sets into finite sets. Sounds suspicious? Hum…) In practice, the result is a very robust, sophisticated mathematical theory, which turns the idea of measuring infinite sets upside down.

The philosophical implications of the theory of numerosities for the philosophy of mathematics are far-reaching, and some of them have been discussed in detail in (Mancosu 2009). Philosophically, the mere fact that there is a coherent, theoretically robust alternative to Cantorian orthodoxy raises all kinds of questions pertaining to our ability to ascertain what numbers ‘really’ are (that is, if there are such things indeed). It is not surprising that Gödel, an avowed Platonist, considered the Cantorian notion of infinite number to be inevitable: there can be only one correct account of what infinite numbers really are. As Mancosu points out, now that there is a rigorously formulated mathematical theory that forsakes One-to-one in favor of Part-whole, it is far from obvious that the Cantorian road is the inevitable one.

As mathematical theories, Cantor’s theory of infinite numbers and the theory of numerosities may co-exist in peace, just as Euclidean and non-Euclidean geometries live peacefully together (admittedly, after a rough start in the 19th century). But philosophically, we may well see them as competitors, only one of which can be the ‘right’ theory about infinite numbers. But what could possibly count as evidence to adjudicate the dispute?

One motivation to abandon Cantorian orthodoxy might be that it fails to provide a satisfactory framework to discuss certain issues. For example, Wenmackers and Horsten (2013) adopt the alternative approach to treat certain foundational issues that arise with respect to probability distributions in infinite domains. It is quite possible that other questions and areas where the concept of infinity figures prominently can receive a more suitable treatment with the theory of numerosities, in the sense that oddities that arise by adopting Cantorian orthodoxy can be dissipated.

On a purely conceptual, foundational level, the dispute might be viewed as one between Part-whole and One-to-one, as to which of the two is the most fundamental principle when it comes to counting finite collections – which would then be generalized to the infinite cases. They are both eminently plausible, and this is why Cantor’s solution, while now widely accepted, remains somewhat counterintuitive (as anyone having taught this material to students surely knows). Thus, it is hard to see what could possibly count as evidence against one or the other 

Now, after having thought a bit about this material (prompted by two wonderful talks by Wenmackers and Mancosu in Groningen yesterday), and somewhat to my surprise, I find myself having a lot of sympathy for Galileo’s original response. Maybe what holds for counting finite collections simply does not hold for measuring infinite collections. And if this is the case, our intuitions concerning the finite cases, and in particular the plausibility of both Part-whole and One-to-one, simply have no bearing on what a theory of counting infinite collections should be like. There may well be other reasons to prefer the numerosities approach over Cantor’s approach (or vice-versa), but I submit that turning to the idea of counting finite collections is not going to provide relevant material for the dispute in the infinite cases. In fact, from this point of view, an entirely different way of measuring infinite collections, where neither Part-whole nor One-to-one holds, is at least in principle conceivable. In what way the term ‘counting’ would then still apply might be a matter of contention, but perhaps counting infinities is a totally different ball game after all.

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31 responses to “Counting infinities”

  1. Jonathan Avatar
    Jonathan

    “It is not surprising that Gödel, an avowed Platonist, considered the Cantorian notion of infinite number to be inevitable: there can be only one correct account of what infinite numbers really are.”
    Is this really right? Why could there not be more than one kind of infinite number up in Platonic heaven? After all, even discounting numerosities, there are two such accounts — the cardinals and the ordinals. They agree in finite cases, and diverge higher up. Of course, it could be objected that these are not both measures of size (although ordinals are naturally taken as measuring something like length, which is intuitively a kind of size), as it sounds like numerosities are. But then why shouldn’t there be more than one measure of size up in Platonic heaven?
    (But regardless, the theory of numerosities sounds really interesting, and I wasn’t aware of it before, so thanks for drawing attention to it.)

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  2. Catarina Dutilh Novaes Avatar

    Maybe my formulation is not sufficiently clear. The idea is that, if there is such a thing as a certain kind of infinite numbers in the Platonic heaven, then there can be only one correct theory of it. This doesn’t preclude the idea that there may be different kinds of infinities in the Platonic heaven, but for each of them, there can only be one correct theory (because their properties are all fully defined).

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  3. Jonathan Avatar
    Jonathan

    That makes sense. But why should we think that the theory of numerosities and the theory of cardinalities are both theories of the same objects, rather than a discovery of a new kind of object? Could we not just resolve the dispute by saying that there is no dispute?

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  4. David Wallace Avatar
    David Wallace

    This is probably just variations on Jonathan’s theme – but I find it very hard to see how there can be a factual disagreement here, rather than just a matter of terminology. Let’s bend over backwards to accommodate Gödel and suppose that something like set-theoretic Platonism is true. There will then exist, between sets, a well-defined equicardinality relation, and also (I take it) a well-defined equinumerosity relation, and those relations will agree on finite sets but in general disagree otherwise. What substantive question remains as to which of these two notions is the “right” notion of same-sized-ness?
    Furthermore, isn’t this pretty general in maths? It wouldn’t be much of a stretch to say that topology, Riemannian manifold theory, vector-space theory, metric-space theory, and no doubt more, are all attempts to extend the concepts of geometry beyond 2- and 3-dimensional space. I find it difficult to see how there could be any question of which one is the “right” generalisation.

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  5. Pete Wolfendale Avatar

    Posted this on the M-Phil blog but it looks like the discussion is here, so I’ll repost:-
    Thanks so much for this post. I’ve always wondered whether it was possible to take the other fork when confronted with Galileo’s paradox, and I’m delighted to be told that there are people who’ve explored it in detail. I’ve often thought that the best way to describe the Cantorian approach to infinity is as a sort of pragmatic typology of counting procedures, rather than as a presenting the triumph of actual over potential infinity and relative over absolute infinity. It’s wonderful to be able to say that it is in fact covers only one set of counting procedures amongst others. Of course, as you note, this does raise the tricky question of how we fix the meaning of ‘counting’, but so goes the dialectic!
    I’ve actually got another question that tends to hang around the one just answered in my personal headspace, and so I may as well let it out: if one buys the historical story about the development of logic from axiomatic to semantic treatments of operators (e.g., Frege-Russell to Tarski, C.I. Lewis to Kripke, etc.), then it’s always struck me that set-theory is the last bastion of axiomatics. People tend to treat it as unproblematic insofar as it forms the basis for the semanticisation of the rest of logic, but once one looks at the standard semantics for generalised quantifiers it begins to look like the smallest possible explanatory circle. It doesn’t tell us nothing, but one gets the sense that the deep semantic structure is being disguised by the set-theoretic axioms (and type-theories) lurking in the background. I’m wondering whether the dialectical challenge to clarify the concept of counting isn’t also the challenge to free the semantics of quantifiers of its model-theoretic chains?
    (P.S., I was spurred to thinking about this by Oystein Linnebo’s work on type-free solutions to the set-theoretic paradoxes, and his ideas about the interaction between plural quantification and predicate quantification as capturing the traditional extension/intension distinction without introducing sets as a distinct type of object to be quantified over)

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  6. Timothy Bays Avatar
    Timothy Bays

    Following up on David Wallace’s comment. Even in the case of size, measure theory gives a different way of discussing the “size” of sets of real numbers than cardinality does. And it’s at least as mathematically central as cardinality.

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  7. Michael Kremer Avatar
    Michael Kremer

    It seems to me the question that confronted Cantor was: what is the most useful way to extend talk of “size” to infinite totalities? As pointed out above, he came up with two answers, which are moreover nicely systematically related: the theory of ordinals and the theory of cardinals. There is a very well-developed theory of these notions, and this theory has proved to be fruitful in logic and in mathematics more generally. This isn’t to object to development of alternative extensions of the notion of size of infinite sets. But it is to ask whether these will prove to be as fruitful as Cantor’s. Mancosu lightly touches on this issue at the end of his essay.
    (When I say that the theories of ordinals and cardinals have proved fruitful in mathematics and logic… here are some examples I can think of right now; I am not a mathematician, mind you, and I may be overstating things. The general notion of isomorphism builds in that the domains of the isomorphic structures are of the same cardinality. Suppose we adopt a different notion of sameness of size; would a notion of isomorphism that required sameness of size be interesting? Or can we separate sameness of structure from sameness of size? The Lowenheim-Skolem theorems are theorems about cardinality. Induction on transfinite ordinals (up to epsilon-0) is used in Gentzen’s proof of the consistency of arithmetic. The discovery of the independence of the continuum hypothesis has proved to be of importance in analysis where corresponding independence results follow. For example there are theorems in analysis which follow if CH is assumed, but not otherwise.)

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  8. Sylvia Avatar

    Thanks for posting this summary, Catarina.
    Minor point: numerosity theory is being developed by Vieri Benci (who initiated the project) Mauro Di Nasso, and Marco Forti. I wouldn’t say that I am developing numerosity theory, merely applying the ideas and results of this theory in the context of probability theory. In the talk, I did explore if and how the objections raised against infinitesimal probabilities (and replies to them) also apply to numerosities, but that is not the main focus om my research.
    Regarding the dispute whether there is a dispute:
    – If you assume the word ‘size’ in the formulation of the part-whole principle and in the one-to-one principle refers to the same concept, it turns out that the principles are inconsistent once you apply them to infinite sets. This view suggests that in order to resolve the inconsistency you have to choose one principle and discard (or at least weaken) the other.
    – If you allow the word ‘size’ to have a different meanings in the two principles (at least once you consider infinite sets), no such choice needs to be made: you can interpret ‘size’ as ‘numerosity’ in the first principle and as ‘cardinality’ in the second principle (and require them to agree for finite sets). Then there is no contradiction. In fact, numerosity can be seen as a refinement of cardinality. (If two sets have the same cardinality, they also have the same cardinality, but for infinite sets the reverse implication does not hold in general.)
    David: the question whether numerosities are well-defined is a subtle matter. They require fixing a free ultrafilter, so they are not as definite as cardinalities. For instance, the matter whether the subset of the even numbers has the same numerosity as the subset of the odd numbers can be settled in two different ways (dependent on whether the numerosity of the entire set of natural numbers is even or odd, which depends on whether the set of even numbers in the ultrafilter or the set of odd numbers): yes they are, or no they differ by 1. This example is also discussed by Benci & Di Nasso (2003) and Mancosu (2009).
    My suggestion at this point would be to consider the entire family of numerosity assignments as a single object (inspired by an approach to represent imprecise probabilities). Although there are uncountably many assignments in such a family (one for each ultrafilter), they will still agree on some things (for instance, that the set of natural numbers is strictly larger than that set minus a singleton).

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  9. Michael Kremer Avatar
    Michael Kremer

    A further note: the notion of numerosity that Mancosu discusses is, as he points out, dependent on the arbitrary choice of an ultrafilter, so that it may or may not turn out (given such a choice) whether the set of odds and the set of evens have the same numerosity. He raises the question whether this arbitrariness can be avoided, but doesn’t answer it. Cantor’s way, of course, does not suffer from this problem.
    It seems to me that we should expect such arbitrariness from a theory that is motivated by the Part-Whole principle concerning sizes. This principle only tells us nothing about the relative sizes of disjoint sets. It provides no motivation for comparing sets that are not related by the subset relation. We need some other motivation for saying that the set of evens and the set of odds are the same size. I find it hard to see what that could be, which would not also tell us that the set of positive evens and the set of odds are the same size; but of course that would lead to a contradiction with the part-whole principle:
    {0, 2, 4, …} is smaller than {2, 4, 6,…}
    {0, 2, 4, …} is the same size as {1, 3, 5, …}
    {2, 4, 6, …} is the same size as {1, 3, 5, …} can’t all be true!

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  10. Michael Kremer Avatar
    Michael Kremer

    Sorry… my previous post should read:
    {0, 2, 4, …} is larger than {2, 4, 6,…}
    {0, 2, 4, …} is the same size as {1, 3, 5, …}
    {2, 4, 6, …} is the same size as {1, 3, 5, …} can’t all be true!

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  11. Michael Kremer Avatar
    Michael Kremer

    Note that my post #9 and Sylvia’s #10 crossed. I may be wrong, but it seems to me Sylvia’s suggestion of quantifying out the arbitrary choice of ultrafilters will yield the result that there are no determinate facts about comparisons of numerosities except when we have sets governed by the part-whole principle, or sets determined already by Cantor to be of different size. I’d be glad to be corrected on this.

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  12. Guess Who Avatar
    Guess Who

    To me the intuition buster when it comes to the subset concept of size, or some kind of generalization of it, is the following kind of example.
    Compose a set of numbers as follows.
    1. Throw in the first 10^1 numbers.
    2. Throw out the next 10^2 numbers.
    3. Throw in the next 10^3 numbers.
    4. Throw out the next 10^4 numbers.
    Keep it up forever.
    On an intuitive basis, using any expansion of the subset notion of size, is this smaller or larger than the set of even numbers?
    No matter how far out one goes, the set vacillates from including about 1/10th of all numbers to including about 9/10ths of all numbers. It’s impossible, then, to develop an intuition as to whether it should be counted as larger or smaller than the set of even numbers. It’s just incomparable.
    The example can be improved a bit by basing the switch on 10^(10^n) instead of 10^n, so that it vacillates from as close to 0% of the numbers to as close to 100% of the numbers as one might wish.
    To me this sort of example pretty much deflates the notion that there’s any intuitive sense of size that one might locate using a generalization of the subset idea. It’s a lot more convincing, I think, than the observation that it seems arbitrary as to whether we take the set of even or the set of odd numbers as larger (or perhaps the same size). This example seems to push us in both directions, as being both larger and smaller than the set of even numbers. This pretty much means the intuitive concept of size so based is incoherent, even if some formalization of the subset idea can be laid out.

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  13. CJ Avatar
    CJ

    Even if we are trying to manufacture a conflict between cardinality and numerosity, doesn’t cardinality have an enormous advantage in that it allows us to say that the size of a finite set (in the same sense of ‘size’ as is used for infinite sets) is the number of things in it?

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  14. Michael Kremer Avatar
    Michael Kremer

    Reply to Guess Who at #12:
    The kind of example you give doesn’t really apply to the “numerosity” approach Catarina is talking about in the OP, at least as far as I can tell from Mancosu’s paper. Your example only works if one thinks that the intuitive concept of size based on the subset part-whole principle is related to asymptotic density measures on the natural numbers. But that is not the picture being employed in the work Mancosu and others are talking about. See Mancosu’s article on p. 627-8, which mentions your sort of example [“Some infinite sets have no asymptotic density(as their lim sup and lim inf do not coincide)” as a reason not to pursue the asymptotic density approach, which anyway yields the result that the evens and the positive evens are the same size, contrary to the part-whole principle, as Mancosu also notes]. Moreover the ambition of the numerosity approach is clearly to generalize beyond subsets of the natural numbers (and beyond countable sets generally).
    But the point about not being to able to say non-arbitrarily how to compare the set of evens and the set of odds applies to the approach Catarina is talking about in the OP.

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  15. Michael Kremer Avatar
    Michael Kremer

    Reply to CJ at #13: According to Mancosu (p. 634, point (iv)) the numerosity account has the result that for finite sets, the numerosity of A is the same as the cardinality of A. Again, this is not the asymptotic measure account of size.

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  16. Jon Cogburn Avatar

    Didn’t Bolzano suggest something like the part-whole approach? I think I remember reading about that as a weird road not taken moment, possibly in Casullo’s study. I might be misremembering though.

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  17. Michael Kremer Avatar
    Michael Kremer

    Jon, Mancosu’s piece is at least half history. Bolzano is discussed on pp. 624ff. You’d enjoy it!

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  18. Sylvia Avatar

    This is a response to Michael @ 11. Well, some things are determinate.
    For instance:
    – All the singletons are disjoint, yet they receive the same numerosity. (Similarly for other disjoint finite sets with equal cardinality.)
    – Co-finite sets need not be in a subset relation one way or the other, yet they are determinate, too (or at least, determinate once the numerosity assigned to entire set is kept fixed).
    – In the example of the set of even numbers and the set of odd numbers, their numerosity can only be equal or different by one. So, although they are disjoint and neither finite nor cofinite, you actually do know a lot.
    On the other hand, among the infinite, not co-finite sets, there are sets whose numerosity is highly inderdeterminate. An example of such a set has been given in a recent paper by Philip Kremer. (In the article, the example is used to illustrate the indeterminacy of nonstandard probabilities, but it has immediate relevance for numerosities, too.)
    Regarding the example given by Guess Who @ 12: it is an intermediate case, not as fully inderterminate as the example given by Philip Kremer. A similar example as the one you give here was given by Timber Kerkvliet (also mentioned in Kremer’s paper). In fact, many of these examples are known from the context of upper and lower asymptotic densities.

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  19. Sylvia Avatar

    This is a comment to clarify the relation between numerosities and asymptotic densities, in response to Michael @ 14.
    Consider a subset of the natural numbers. Compute the ratio between the numerosity of this subset and the numerosity of the set of natural numbers. (This ratio can be interpreted as the nonstandard probability of the subset in a fair lottery on the natural numbers.) Then take the standard part of the resulting hyperrational number (i.e., round off the infinitesimals). Then you have the asymptotic density of the subset (if it has one*).
    For the even and odd numbers, the numerosity ratio will be 1/2 or 1/2 plus/minus an infinitesimal. In both cases, the result after taking the standard part is 1/2, which agrees with the asymptotic density.
    *In case the subset does not have an asymptotic density, the result will be a number between its lower and upper asymptotic density. There is a real-valued extension of the asymptotic density (defined for all subsets) based on Banach limits, which is equally indeterminate (in fact, you can also obtain them via ultrafilters or equally non-constructive means). In particular, as was demonstrated in the paper I linked to before, the range can be all the rational numbers between 0 and 1 (maximally indeterminate).

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  20. Michael Kremer Avatar
    Michael Kremer

    Sylvia at both #18 and #19:
    Thanks, that’s helpful. All I have read about this is the Mancosu article, very quickly, this morning, after Catarina’s post. My comment about disjoint sets was of course meant to apply only to infinite ones (as I already saw from Mancosu’s article that everything is as it should be for finite sets). But I did not realize that there would be results such as you mention for even/odd, cofinite sets, etc. I also did not know that there were relations to asymptotic densities.
    Finally: I should know that paper by the other Kremer. He is, after all, my brother!

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  21. Catarina Dutilh Novaes Avatar

    I’ve been busy with other things today and thus have not been able to address the many interesting points raised here. (At any rate, I wouldn’t be qualified to address the more technical ones, and this is why I’m really happy that Sylvia jumped in!) Tomorrow I still want to get back to the point of the ‘Platonic’ status of infinities, and on whether there is a real dispute between the numerosities approach and Cantorian orthodoxy (as some may have noticed, my final point was precisely something along the lines of dissolving the disagreement).
    But I do want to notice the following: Michael, I consider this post to have been successful already merely due to the fact that you got a pointer to one of Phil’s papers 🙂 Small world?

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  22. ben w Avatar
    ben w

    “t’s impossible, then, to develop an intuition as to whether it should be counted as larger or smaller than the set of even numbers. It’s just incomparable.”
    It seems to me as if there’s a bit of a rhetorical trick here, because you refer to “the set of even numbers” outright, but have us construct the supposedly problematic set step by step by a series of inclusions and exclusions.
    Suppose I have a set constructed like this:
    – throw in the even numbers less than 10^1
    – throw out the numbers between 10^1+1 and 10^2
    – throw in the even numbers between 10^2+1 and 10^3
    – throw out the numbers between 10^3+1 and 10^4
    etc.
    This also vacillates, no matter how far out I go, between containing comparatively few and comparatively many of the numbers between 0 and the highest number I’ve yet reached. But it’s a subset of the set of even numbers, innit?

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  23. John Schwenkler Avatar

    Thanks for the really interesting post and discussion. A couple of weeks ago I taught the material from Robert Grosseteste that Paolo discusses from pp. 616-617 of his article, and had no idea that this kind of case could be made for his position — instead I just waved my hands about how even though “we” know better thanks to Cantor, it’s not as if Grosseteste was just being silly. Now I am ready to do better next time! — and maybe also will add the Galileo material to my medieval syllabus as well.

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  24. Michael Kremer Avatar
    Michael Kremer

    Catarina: Tres amusant!

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  25. Catarina Dutilh Novaes Avatar

    Hi Sylvia, I changed the info concerning who’s developing numerosities theory in the OP, thanks for the clarification!

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  26. Sylvia Avatar

    This is a response to Ben @ 22.
    I see why you think that the example given by Guess Who @ 12 may involve a ‘trick’. Indeed, it is not the process that matters, but the set as a whole; after all, different processes can yield the same set. In this case, however, it is fine, because the process given by Guess Who does match the static structure of the set. If you define S_m as the sum from i=0 to i=m of 10^i, then you can write the set as { S_m <= n < S_m+1 | m odd}.
    Since this example is neither a subset nor a superset of the even numbers, it is not clear how their numerosities should be related; still, there are some constraints such that the numerosity is not maximally indeterminate. A family of numerosity evaluations shows that it can be modelled by a larger, smaller, or equal numerosity equally well. There is no inconsistency in having multiple evaluations side by side. Moreover, if you do have a specific intuition concerning the size of this set in relation to the even numbers, you can put this in as a constraint in the ultrafilter.
    One may argue that their is no justification for such an intuition either way, yet we may develop such intuitions (albeit by doing a fair bit of mathematics)! There are mathematicians, like Kerkvliet & Meester in a paper on the arXiv, who try to define uniform probability functions on the natural numbers (and other infinite sets) in a canonical way. They start from the observation that the usual meaning of ‘uniform’ underdetermines uniform probability measures on infinite domains, and try to strengthen the uniformity assumptions. (In particular, they use a proprety which they call ‘weak thinnability’.) This allows them to obtain unique values for a collection of subsets of the natural numbers, which extends the domain on which the usual asymptotic density gives unique results. Still, the domain for which this works is not all the subsets of the natural numbers.
    To be clear, the work by Kerkvliet & Meester aims at a real-valued result. However, one may use their results to inform further conditions on the ultrafilter for nonstandard probabilities or numerosities, but even then, uncountably many choices will remain unspecified.

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  27. CJ Avatar
    CJ

    Sorry, I wrote that very shoddily. The numerosity of a finite set is indeed the natural number that counts its elements (or, at least, is the image of that number under a very natural injection from the natural numbers to numerosities, which may or may not be the same thing, depending on your ontology). I should have said something like ‘the number of things in a finite set just is/can be analysed as its size (i.e. cardinality)’. That is, it’s not the fact that the cardinality of {0,1} is 2 that is an advantage for the cardinality approach, but that it gives us an account of what 2 is, i.e. lets us say ‘what 2 is is the cardinality of {0,1} (or any other choice of 2-element set)’. I don’t see numerosity being able to provide a competing account of number. Whereas cardinality seems a more fundamental notion than the natural numbers, the arithmetic operations, and so on, numerosity seems less fundamental than those things, not least because we currently need them to define it.

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  28. Timber Kerkvliet Avatar
    Timber Kerkvliet

    As a reaction to what our result could be used for.
    “However, one may use their results to inform further conditions on the ultrafilter for nonstandard probabilities or numerosities”
    It is a bit more subtle, because you can show that for any ultrafilter, there are subsets for which extension of natural density along this ultrafilter, does not give the desired value (i.e. the unique value that we assign). Rather than informing about which ultrafilter to take, our result could be used to suggest that an alternative sequence (see paper for specifics) should be subjected to the ultrafilter-limit.
    We, however, choose uniqueness over measuring all subsets and restrict the domain of our measure to the subsets of natural numbers to which we can assign an unique value.

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  29. Guess Who Avatar
    Guess Who

    The point of my example was certainly not that there would be no way of constructing some formalism that tries to mimic the part-whole idea, or express some generalization of the subset idea.
    It is rather to suggest that any such formalization is not going to capture a particularly rich sense of size on an intuitive basis.
    I don’t find some of the other counterexamples presented earlier, such as in #10, as particularly compelling on this issue. I think a fair answer to examples like that is that they are just decided by convention one way or another (by choice of ultraproduct), and who cares?
    But the example I raised and the intuitions it evokes don’t go away so easily.
    I would expect that that example might indeed in the formalism, by choice of ultraproduct, go either way. But that seems to require a lot more to swallow than other examples. It is not very satisfying to be told that it’s just a matter of convention. I suppose it’s possible that some other intuitions might be carefully kindled so that they might decide the case. But intuitions that require a lot of hard work are not very pleasing, and certainly not to philosophers as opposed to mathematicians.
    In a way, the ultimate point of the example I raised is to reinforce that the infinite really is infinite, and isn’t like you or me: it behaves in strange ways. Trying to take intuitions that arise in the finite and expect that they can be made to apply to the infinite is often a mug’s game.

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  30. Catarina Dutilh Novaes Avatar

    Ok, so back to blogging action after the weekend!
    I’m not in a position to comment on the technical points that have been raised (and people seemed to be doing just fine discussing them anyway, especially with Sylvia’s expert contributions). But I do want to return to the question of whether there is a real dispute between the Cantorian approach and the numerosities approach. As it so happens, I am the opposite of a Platonist when it comes to numbers; I hold that even basic, finite numbers are theoretical constructs, and so there could be different, non-competing theories about them too. So I’m more sympathetic to the idea that the distinction here is analogous to that between Euclidean and non-Euclidean geometries.
    However, for many of the people involved in these debates, especially neo-logicists, there is a real question as to what Numbers Really Are, and so for those people there seems to be a real competition between the different approaches. (Mancosu’s talk in Groningen last week had a lot of interesting material on this.) What I was suggesting in the post is that, if there is such a competition, then I’m not sure that intuitions about counting finite collections have that much bearing on what is the best theory for measuring infinities.

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  31. Sylvia Avatar

    Catarina, both in the OP and @ 30, and Guess Who @ 29: you suggest viewing the infinite case as completely distinct from the finite case.
    This stands in contrast with ‘my’ view (pervasive in mathematics): in talking about infinity, we extrapolate properties from the finite case. We do not expect everything to hold (after all, the infinite is different from the finite), but we aim to preserve as much properties as possible: we are looking for a conservative extension, an idealization based on the finite.
    In the case that has been discussed, we start from finite sets and what we extrapolate is their size. So, to me, it seems clear that we should be able to say something about their size, because this is the very property that we have been extrapolating. We can’t count infinite sets like we can count finite sets, but it seems relevant to ask what is that we do when we count (even if you restrict this notion to finite sets) and how much of this can be extrapolated or idealized.
    It is puzzling to me how we could go about investigating the infinite if it has nothing in common with the finite, or even why we would still be interested in doing so. Well, you could say that infinite sets are not finite and nothing more. In fact, Mancosu reviewed the suggestion to put all infinite sets in the same equivalence class. In that case neither the one-to-one principle nor the whole-part principle hold and all you can say is that these sets are infinite.
    However, defining such an equivalence relation does not rule out defining alternative equivalence relations (including but not limited to Cantorian and numerosities) besides it. While I agree that the coarse distinction between finite and infinite size is a good starting point, it remains unclear to me why this should also be the end point.
    Basically, my question is: if not the principles for counting finite collections, what else could inform a theory of measuring infinite collections?

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