I sometimes get asked why one should bother attending to continental metaphysics.*

It's an impossible question to answer in generality, because different people asking it usually have such contradictory presuppositions. If the person is anti-metaphysical, any answer has to be directed to the neo-Kantian presumption that proper philosophy is some form of transcendental epistemology. If the person is anti-continental then you have to try to demonstrate that there are resources relevant to their projects. Sometimes this is possible.** Often it is not, especially if your interlocutor has decided a priori that large swaths of contemporary French and German philosophy is "crap philosophy."

I was thus very happy to read this interview with Graham Priest (who himself has wonderful chapters on Heidegger, Hegel, and Derrida in Beyond the Limits of Thought and also delves deeply into the continental tradition in his new book One).


The key general passage of the interview is:

Great philosophical writings have such depth and profundity that each generation can go back and read them with new eyes, see new things in them, apply them in different ways. So we study the history of philosophy that we may do philosophy.

One of my friends said that he regards the history of philosophy as rather like a text book of chess openings. Just as it is part of being a good chess player to know the openings, it is part of being a good philosopher to know standard views and arguments, so that they can pick them up and run with them.

There is a lot of truth in this analogy, but it sells the history of philosophy short as well. Chess is pursued within a fixed and determinate set of rules. These cannot be changed. But part of good philosophy (like good art) involves breaking the rules. Past philosophers may have played by various sets of rule; but sometimes we can see their projects and ideas can fruitfully (perhaps more fruitfully) be articulated in different frameworks—perhaps frameworks of which they could have had no idea—and so which can plumb their ideas to depths of which they were not aware.

He goes on to give a couple of examples. But what's interesting to me now is that this also applies to why philosophers in one tradition should study other traditions generally.

In this interesting post*** Eric Schliesser makes a related, slightly more specific, point:

Joel Katzav has convinced me that what I have just described is, perhaps, necessary but not sufficient for philosophical competence; we should, rather, conceive philosophical competence as the skillful understanding of more than one philosophical tradition.  By 'skillful understanding' I mean that one is capable of actively engaging with an alternative tradition or rival school in informative and critical fashion. That is, one is capable of asking illuminating questions about such an alternative (recall the example of Copp above) and one is capable of distinguishing good work and bad work in it (not about it) without simply assimilating it to one's own perspective. (One need not make a contribution to it, but it would, perhaps counterfactually, not be impossible.) The alternative need not be a live school; it can also be a historical alternative. Or, it might exist in an entirely different professional/cultural context. An example of competence is a person capable of working on, say, Mencius (in 14th century China) while writing for, say, a broadly analytical contemporary audience.

Schliesser and Priest's posts are very good reads, and I think that their points both compliment each other, and provide the beginning of answers to some of the skeptical interlocutors I've been encountering. But even independently of that, Joe Bob says check them out.

[Notes:

*Including German Idealism, Nicolai Hartmann type ontology, Deleuziana, Speculative Realism, contemporary French and German "analytic" philosophy (Frederic Nef, Claudine Tiercelin, Markus Gabriel etc.), the Parisian 68ers as interpreted by people like Brad Stone, Lee Braver, Tom Sparrow, and Debbie Goldgaber, etc. etc. etc. All of these overlap in various ways.

**Jonathan Schaffer's revival of monism as a position worth taking seriously, Johanna Seibt's process ontology, Nancy Cartwright, Jessica Wilson, and other's work on capacities, as well as other recent work on modal realism without possible worlds, and debates about universals/particularity all create  openings.

***I'm pretty sure I unconsciously plagiarized Schliesser when I was answering Harman's question about analytic and continental philosophy here. My practice of telling my students interested in both that they have to master one tradition to the standards of the most rebarbative curmudgeon predates Schliesser's post, but me thinking this is in itself (not just prudential) good advice might be from reading Schliesser.]

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42 responses to “Some general reasons to get outside of your comfort zone”

  1. Eric Schliesser Avatar
    Eric Schliesser

    Thank you for your kind remarks, Cogburn. I am confident that there has been a lot of mutual pollination among NewAPPS philosophers, so I don’t think anyone of us has exclusive property to these ideas. Anyway, It’s nice to see my words coupled with Priest’s remarks. My favorite line among Priest’s remarks are these: “The ideas are by no means dead. They have potentials which only more recent developments…can actualize.” (That resonates with my idea of philosophic prophecy!) I have not read your interview yet, but I look forward to doing so before long!

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  2. Patrick S. O'Donnell Avatar

    Here’s a somewhat different proposal from Hector-Neri Castañeda that does not so much refer to individual philosophers “getting outside their comfort zone,” at least not directly or in the first instance but argues rather for a “first-order philosophical pluralism” that might at least encourage the tolerance, if not systematic exploration, of other philosophical traditions:
    “…[I]n the practice of philosophy there are two major tendencies, each correct—up to the point where the other tendency is not joined but shunned. One is the forest approach, the tendency to see very general structural lines of the world or of experience. The other, the bush approach, is the tendency to dwell upon small aspects of experience. Each approach can be, and has been, exercised in varying degrees. This is not bad. What is bad is the policy of merely exercising the extreme degrees. [….] Fruitful philosophical experiences are combinations of the two approaches: taking a full attentive look at the forests of the structures of experience and seeing their measure and reach in their realizations in the particular trees and bushes of experience: the pervasive general in the particular; the abstract structures within the concrete empirical. We want to understand the very large structures of experience, but we must understand them in their concrete settings in human life in its full social niche within the world at large—with occasional considered guesses at what things might be outside the human situation.
    Some philosophers do not see the large picture of the theories or approaches within which they attempt to shed light on some small pieces of philosophical topics. This happens not infrequently in some exercises of so-called analytic philosophy: refined little lamps are set to cast the most intense lights on the smallest aspects of human experience. Sometimes the light is lost on the empty spaces surround the miniscule points under consideration. No wonder, then, that even many of those philosophers working within a school, or approach, whose scope and organization they see fully, may yet fail to appreciate the contributions by philosophers in other schools. Some fail to see the richness and complexity of human experience, yet, more importantly, some fail to see that the world is capable of being different in different contexts or perspectives [a point made rather systematically and emphatically in Jain epistemology]. Often the presupposition is straightforward: there is one world and an indivisible unity of man and world, hence, they assume, there is just one theory of the structure of man and world [thus imbibing the more intoxicating parts of both predictable scientism and crude realism]. This…gives us the polemical approximation unity of the philosophical profession.
    Here I wish neither to defend nor to attack this assumed view of philosophical truth. I submit instead a first-order philosophical pluralism: to understand human nature we need all the theories, all the models we can invent. I am not proposing a relativistic Protagorean metaphysics. I am recommending, first, a methodological theoretical pluralism. [….]
    Perhaps human-world reality is not a monolith, but a many-sided perspectival structure. Perhaps the greater understanding will be achieved by being able to see human reality now one way and now another way. Thus, we need ALL philosophical points of views to be developed, and ‘developed’ is meant in earnest: the more it illustrates the harmonious unison of the encompassing Forest Approach and the riches of the Bush Approach. Hence, all philosophers are part of one team collectively representing the totality of philosophical wisdom, and individually working the details a point of view: we are ALL parts of the same human project. Looking at things this way, we realize that we need not polemicize against the most fashionable views hoping to supplant them with our own view. [emphasis added] Instead, with a clear conscience, we may urge the defenders of those views to extend them, to consider further data to make them more and more comprehensive, pursuing the goal of maximal elucidation of the structure of experience and the world. At the same time we urge other philosophers to develop equally comprehensive views that are deliberately built as alternatives. The aim is to have ALL the possible most comprehensive master theories of world and experience.
    To be sure, we cannot foretell that such a plurality of view as envisaged is ultimately feasible. But neither can we prove that in the end there must be just one total view, bound to overwhelm all others. If many master views are feasible, then the greatest philosophical illumination will consist alternatively to see reality through ALL those master views. It would be still true that the greatest philosophical light comes, so to speak, from the striking of theories against each other, but not in the destruction of one theory in the striking process, but rather in the complementary alternation among them. Each master theory would be like a pair of colored glasses with different patterns of magnification so that the same mosaic of reality can appear differently arranged [this calls to mind my youthful experimentation with psychedelics!]. Here Wittgenstein’s reflections on the duck-rabbit design are relevant. The different theories of the world give us different views, the rabbit, the duck, the deer, the tiger, and so on, all embedded in the design of reality. The analogy is lame on one crucial point: the master theories of the world and experience must be forged piecemeal: with an eye on the Bush Approach, patiently exegesizing the linguistic and phenomenological data, and with another eye on the Forest Approach, building the theoretical planks (axioms, principles, theses, rules) carefully and rigorously.” [….]
    Castañeda’s motivation for such first-order philosophical pluralism may not be everyone’s cup of tea, as he envisages this (eventually) leading to robust philosophical progress:
    Among the consequences of “pluralistic meta-philosophy” noted by Castañeda is a “later stage in the development of philosophy” in which we will be rendered fit to engage in a “comparative study of master theories of the world and experience,” or what he terms “dia-philosophy.” In other words, our master theories of philosophical structures will be sufficiently rich and comprehensive for us to be able to articulate holistic and dia-philosophical critique: “compar[ing] two equally comprehensive theories catering to exactly the same rich collection of data, and, second, assess[ing] the compared theories in terms of their diverse illumination of the data.”
    “The natural adversary attitude” will take the form of “criticisms across systems or theories,” but “not as refutations or strong objections, but as contributions of new data as formulations of hurdles for steady development.”
    Castañeda christens the development of master theories of the world and experience for dia-philosophical comparison “sym-philosophy:” “Thus the deeper sense in which ALL philosophers are members of one and the same team is the sense in which we are all sym-philosophers: playing our varied instruments in the production of the dia-philosophical symphony.”

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  3. Neil Levy Avatar
    Neil Levy

    I must say the view to which Eric commits, and you seem to endorse, strikes me as unacceptably anti-pluralist. Eric says that philosophical competence consists in the skilful understanding of more than one philosophical tradition; you say that one ought to get out of one’s comfort zone. A genuine pluralist would say that if that’s what philosophical competence consists in, then its not for everyone (in philosophy). A pluralist would agree that there is great value in these kinds of tradition-combining approaches, but also in approaches that develop within a single narrow tradition (or a sub-tradition: a particular debate in meta-ethics, say).
    I may not be philosophically competent by Eric’s standards, but I don’t think I much care. Allow 1000 flowers to bloom, not just the hybrids.

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  4. Alan White Avatar
    Alan White

    This is real wisdom from HNC as I see it, but I wonder how much this differs from explicitly embracing pragmatism as the best (self-referentially assessed by a metatheorical) approach to philosophy? That is, first admit that axiology guides methodology, and that value-laden goals determine whether methods are successful or not. “Workability” isn’t as a term a self-evident transparent goal after all, and always conceals what the value of “work” means. Explicit citation of the prescriptive value of the “work of a concept” is ineliminable, as e.g. Manuel Vargas has pointed out in his book Building Better Beings. What I’m recommending is that a pragmatic approach puts values in the proper place of what it is that determines success or failure of methods, and thus axiology is prior to methodology. I’d point out that to argue otherwise is to presuppose some a priori values about an order of methodologies, and I simply am dumbfounded about what that would mean.

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  5. Jon Cogburn Avatar

    If Eric’s committed to your reading of him then I probably disagree with him too. However, I don’t think you can fulfill Eric’s standards without first mastering a single narrow tradition. So by transcendental reasoning, I have to agree with the final sentence of your comment.

    I should have cut and pasted the relevant bit of the interview to which I linked in the footnote (http://www.euppublishing.com/userimages/ContentEditor/1396275529386/Form%20and%20Object%20-%20Translators%27%20Q&A.pdf ). This is the beginning of my answer to the question of what I think of the analytic continental divide:

    On the one hand, I advise students to get Ph.D. mastery in either continental or analytic sufficient to satisfy the most rebarbative analytic/continental culture warriors (and they exist on both sides, though the analytic ones are most harmful to philosophy because they are more powerful).
    This is for two reasons. (1) Good pluralism means mastering one tradition thoroughly and then getting yourself conversant enough in another so as to be able to learn from people in that tradition. Bad pluralism is the kind of balkanization that ate up so many departments in the 1980s. Ugly pluralism is a monistic hegemony pretending to be pluralistic. Lots of continental philosophers see analytics appropriating their figures in this light. And they are rational to do so. Some analytics think that since we do Heidegger now, we don’t need to worry about people who are masters of the phenomenological tradition. So I try to tell students to be good pluralists. (2) This is more prudential. When you have such divisions you get ghetto mentalities, where the people at the top of their subarea get a lot of psychic pleasure at being at the top of some area, no matter how small (this holds in analytic and continental philosophy). And they are very, very threatened by anyone who might shake these little ghettos up. This creates a lot of selective pressure for the kind of balkanized pluralism that we often see. Younger stage academics almost always have to do work pleasing to the masters of some academic ghetto in order to get permanent work.

    We started the blog NewApps in order to try to change this dynamic, and we’ve had some influence at getting analytics and continentals to treat each other seriously as members of the same guild and even to learn from one another. But we’re nowhere near there. I know a few brilliant philosophers that are almost criminally underemployed because their work traverses too many traditional ghettos. It’s very disheartening.

    I should have been a bit clearer. The dynamic I’d like to be is simply one where we treat one another as members of the same guild and one where we don’t set up a priori blocks to learning from one another. I probably should have been a little less vain about the blog too. . .
    In any case, with you I think it would be very bad for philosophy if everyone were expected to be a hybrid. You’d no longer have traditions to create the hybrids in the first place!
    But perhaps against you, I don’t think it’s too much to ask specialists (at least those with tenure) to do some leisure reading (or take part in reading groups) in philosophy outside of their narrow areas. Just enough to be able to be a charitable interlocutor with one more colleague in another area when talking about that colleague’s research.
    Moreover, I think that most creativity involves analogical thinking, and going a little bit beyond the norm of just leisure reading can help people quite a bit within their own areas. There are tons of weird examples in the history of philosophy and science of this happening (probably the weirdest is Schroedinger taking breaks from physics to obsessively study the Upanishads). This is I think what Eric had in mind. But I wouldn’t support it if it was taken to be inconsistent with a healthy ecosystem of people devoting themselves to narrow projects.
    Finally, just for anyone who isn’t familiar with your work- The “I” had to have been used rhetorically in your final sentence. You fulfill Eric’s desiderata far better than Eric or I do. I can’t actually think of a better example. This isn’t an attempt on my part to make a tu quoque. In many contexts, including this one, it’s actually praiseworthy to not expect everyone else to be like oneself.

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  6. Eric Schliesser Avatar

    I find your remark genuinely puzzling, Neil. (Let’s leave aside the ‘pluralism’ label because I certainly don’t apply it to myself nor do I advance it.) I would not deny that for a tradition to advance it requires a lot narrow specialization on very technical topics. (We have all read our Kuhn, haven’t we?) So, such mastery should be encouraged within a tradition or school. Indeed, let those flowers bloom. But why think that mastery of such technique is sufficient to count as philosophical? Except for name-calling, you have offered no argument for that.

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  7. Aaron Garrett Avatar
    Aaron Garrett

    Eric, Neil’s point, which is well-taken, is that the true pluralist thinks that mastery of those traditions is sufficient, and doesn’t engage in saying this is philosophical but that isn’t. That’s not name calling, that’s a point.

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  8. Eric Schliesser Avatar

    If there are exemplars of ‘true pluralists,’ I wish them well. But your comment gives me a chance to correct something. For, I asked Cogburn to correct my response to Neil before he published it. (Not sure what happened to my email to him.) I didn’t mean to say that “why think that mastery of such technique is sufficient to count as philosophical?” But rather “why think that mastery of such technique is sufficient to count as philosophical competence.” You may disagree that this is a good criterion of competence, but I would like to hear an argument for your (shared?) position that puzzle-solving (and stuff akin to it) is a better criterion for competence. Or is any contribution to the development of a philosophical tradition sufficient for exhibiting philosophical competence? If so, then even making mistakes might count (because prompting correction, etc.) That’s not name-calling, just a request for elaboration.

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  9. Patrick S. O'Donnell Avatar

    Alan,
    While still fairly long, perhaps my snippet from Castañeda’s article did not do his position justice with regard to his explicit and implicit views on the significance of axiological questions and their role vis-à-vis methodological issues. (I think Mark Lance could adeptly address this topic far better than me but I’ll say a few things regardless, hoping my response is not too feeble.)
    His discussion of “human nature and patterns of experience;” his distinction between “foundational” problems (e.g., of mind, language, reality, and practical reasoning) and the so-called “hard problems” of “applied philosophy;” his view that the profession’s prior emphasis on certain skills of reasoning well and a kind of open-minded that amounted to an evasion of important empirical and axiological questions (hence philosophers ‘tended to be arrogantly humble in the timid disregard of the important issues of human living’*), and that he “welcomed with profound satisfaction and cheerfulness” the fact that an increasing number within the profession had begun working on normative questions and the “important issues of life,” suggests he did not intend to sidestep (broadly speaking) axiological questions or, in effect, fail to accord them pride of place. His description and valorization of what he called “unlimited topical freedom” (as well as the fact that ‘all its [i.e., philosophy’s] applications are legitimate, all methods are feasible, all interdisciplinary connections are accessible) appears directly linked to his assumptions about human nature and experience and a corresponding meta-philosophical view about value pluralism (while the number of values is finite, the manner of individual and group realization of these values is in principle open-ended), including related assumptions about the nature of truth (something akin, it seems to me, to Michael Lynch’s treatment of ‘truth as one and many’ or a ‘soft’ realism, hence his belief, for example, that we need to tease out the metaphysical or ontological possibility that ‘human-world reality is not a monolith, but a many-sided perspectival structure’).
    In short, his “first order” methodological theoretical pluralism is not without presuppositions and assumptions such that his view can (if it does not already) accord pride of place to axiology within the elaboration of respective worldviews (or ‘ALL possible most comprehensive master theories of world and experience’), the emphasis being on the fullest possible development of alternative theories. This might be also gleaned from his statement that he “cannot see that Aristotle’s or Kant’s projects were misguided, or that the only proper thing to do in the future is simply to engage in sustained conversation, not in the pursuit of truth, but seeking edification.”
    * In the same volume in which Castañeda’s essay appears, Amelie Oksenberg Rorty likewise addresses this topic: “On some deep level, few of us know what we are doing. Not only as philosophers, but as citizens, parents, teachers, friends, we do not know what is central to performing our activities well. We guild-philosophers are good at discussing whether answers to the question ‘How should one/we/I live?’ are objective, or whether they can be rationally justified. But we are not, as philosophers, very good at actually examining the details of competing substantive answers to that question, tending as we do to protect ourselves by moving straightway to methodological issues. So quickly do we make that move that we rarely even ask questions about the most basic and fundamental features that shape our lives.”

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  10. Jon Cogburn Avatar

    Sorry about that. It’s sitting there unread. I can’t get anything substantive done if my e-mail accounts are open all the time. It’s just too distracting. I can keep the little moderation thingy in typepad open though.
    I really would like to see the elaboration and dialogue. A lot hinges on what one takes to be distinctively “philosophical.” It might be cool for the rest of us to see you and Aaron and Neil hash this out a bit.

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  11. Carl Sachs Avatar

    I do think there are distinct intellectual virtues engendered by skilled competence in more than one philosophical tradition: suppleness of thought, the creativity akin to cross-modal integration, liberation from the dogmatic pronouncements of previous generations all come to mind.
    Though saying that skilled understanding (not just familiarity) is crucial for philosophical competence (not just intellectual excellence) seems to be raising the bar somewhat high — by that standard, I suspect that philosophical competence will forever elude me.
    Since most NewAPPS participants are coming to pluralism from the side of solid grounding in “analytic” (loosely construed) philosophy, let me say something about my experiences traveling in the opposite direction. I was trained at the intersection of the history of philosophy and ‘Continental’ philosophy, and wrote a dissertation that was basically a solid history of philosophy work on Nietzsche — though ‘my’ Nietzsche was closer to that of Foucault and Deleuze than to that of Leiter and Clark.
    The scales fell from my eyes in stages, but the biggest turning point was reading Jay Bernstein’s 2001 book on Adorno. I was utterly blown away by how Bernstein was able to translate Adorno’s gnomic pronouncements into arguments that bore directly on central concerns of analytic epistemology and metaethics — yet at the same time showing exactly why Adorno had a stronger position than McDowell or Brandom. In order to figure out what Bernstein was doing and why, I started reading McDowell (there was a small McDowell reading group in my grad department, continuing the UCSD legacy as a resistance cell of German Idealism within mainstream philosophy). From then I started reading Sellars and Brandom, and I was off to the races.
    To this day I still get some criticism from friends who are invested in their identity as Continental philosophers — but that pales in comparison to the support I receive from colleagues trained in both ‘analytic’ and ‘Continental’ tradition. I actually feel quite confident that someday quite soon someone will be able to write a book, The Rise and Fall of the Analytic/Continental Divide: 1931-2014.*
    * I picked 1931 because that was when Carnap published “Uberwindung der Metaphysik durch logische Analyse der Sprache”, and 2014 because, as Cogburn has been urging here, the rise of ‘Continental realism’ does away with the last major substantive divide between analytic and Continental philosophy.

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  12. Alan White Avatar
    Alan White

    Thanks so much Patrick. Methinks I need to read much more Castaneda than I have.

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  13. Neil Avatar
    Neil

    Eric, I really don’t care what the criteria for philosophical competence are. There are lots of people doing interesting work in very narrow sub-fields. Whether they count as philosophically competent or not isn’t interesting to me. Here is what I care about (and what Jon cares about, I think): we should have a default attitude of respect towards people’s work. The claim “that’s not really philosophy” functions mainly to dismiss others. I don’t think we ought to be trying to give the claim an analysis: we should be putting it to bed instead. You’ve played a salutary role in a tentative peace between analytic and continental philosophy; do you really now want to open a war on another front?

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  14. Charles R Avatar
    Charles R

    “Why think that mastery of such technique is sufficient to count as philosophical competence?”
    From the standpoint of a pluralist, making a specific determination that competence is a specific methodological practice—in this case, the practice of skilful understanding of more than one field/subfield—is not being pluralistic: there are many ways in which one demonstrates competency, one of them being mastery of a very localized, well-lit space (to use another image in this discussion). To bring in some more of Jon’s language, balkanization comes across as “bad pluralism” not because there’re no conversations or cross-pollinations, nor maybe even because of the ‘ghetto mentality’ (is this distinct from the tribalism Jon rightly criticizes?), but because there isn’t acceptance that the other methods and conceptualizing are worthy in and from their own perspectives.
    If we say that focusing on one’s particular problems to the exclusion of any other is inherently not demonstrative of competency, then we’re not being inclusive towards those local, particular methods and concepts and problems as themselves. Isn’t this what O’Donnell is pointing to by quoting Castañeda? The specialists in those sub-sub-…-fields are going to explore things in very fascinating ways, but if we call their reluctance to incorporate other disciplines, methods, ideas, concepts, strategies, practices a failure of competency, then we lose out on what is fascinating about those fields to those people who enjoy the richness, and we’re doing this to them, the specialists: we’re depriving them of the entire community’s acceptance of their dedication towards local mastery by saying the better masters are those who can converse in more than one language.
    I mean, if the eye says to the hand, “You’re not as good as I am, for all you do is touch the immediate whereas I see the distant,” then when the hand believes this and thinks itself useless for being incapable of grasping at a distance the larger connections, it ceases its own particular functioning on the ideological advice coming from what’s just another part of something larger than both.
    Taking the ego out of it altogether best suits all the philosophical traditions, since at heart what seems to really be driving the distrust of other ways of going about things is what Jon’s talking about there at the end of his comment #5: our own vanity about our own perspectives. If we’re not vain about what we think is right, it’s a lot less threatening to discover the truth that other perspectives are right. Not

    as

    right, but are right.

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  15. Patrick S. O'Donnell Avatar

    Ah, that makes at least two of us.

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  16. Mozzer Avatar
    Mozzer

    “I am confident that there has been a lot of mutual pollination among NewAPPS philosophers…”
    Is that what they’re calling it these days?

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  17. Eric Schliesser Avatar

    If the question is not significant (that is, interesting?) why respond so critically to the suggestion? I am not claiming something is or is not philosophy. In fact, in the post from which Cogburn quotes (and generously links) the question of competence is disassociated from BOTH your debunking strategies (introducing ‘pluralism’ and introducing ‘what is philosophy’). This makes me wonder if you even bother to read my original post.
    Simply put: something/somebody can be philosophical and not competent.
    News of that tentative peace between analytic and continental philosophy has not made its way to my small country in the periphery. Anyway, for me my claim about competence is unrelated to that dispute.

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  18. Eric Schliesser Avatar

    Charles,
    Are you a pluralist? Good for you. In my original post, I disassociate the question of competence from pluralism. One can be competent in the sense that I articulate it AND be dismissive or very critical toward one or both traditions/styles of philosophy one is skillful at. So, pluralism is not what is at stake in it for me. (I don’t think I have ever described myself as a pluralist.)
    So, in your comment you helpfully describe competence in terms of mastery. We agree about this. The question is, however, what counts as the relevant mastery. We agree that it is very good to have mastery of at least one local well-lit space. Nothing I say is critical of that. Nor do I think any master of a local well-lit space has superiority over other such masters. All I am questioning is if that kind of mastery is sufficient to count as mastery of philosophy. In particular, what I have in mind is that it is a bad sign of if one is incapable of having a philosophical conversation (say) with somebody that has mastery of any other well lit-space in philosophy. (It’s amusing that you use an argument from pluralism against that.)
    So, I am NOT claiming competence involves having to incorporate other fields, approaches into their own work. I do explicitly claim that that specialization should not be equated with competency in philosophy. I am puzzled why you think that suggests an attitude of disrespect of the specialists. I am extremely admiring of the specialists, and I am happy to be surrounded by them outside of philosophy and inside philosophy.

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  19. Jon Cogburn Avatar

    Ha!
    I take it that “Mutual pollination” here refers to: (1) bleary early afternoon discussions over coffee at APAs, (2) drawn-out, often heated, and usually inconclusive e-mail round robins about the optimal ways to balance the autonomy of individual bloggers with the heteronomy of being a member of a group blog, and (3) in light of (2) someone fine tuning the comments policy for the n + 1th time.
    The term’s not in the OED so I don’t know it’s history of usage, but I think I remember that some 19th century German academics used some variant of “mutuall Bestäubung” explicitly with respect to (1), and (2). The problem is that the CSS was too primitive to allow “widgets,” so you didn’t have anything analogous to a “comments policy” then, though I would argue that Herder’s discussion of “Kommentare Politik” is actually remarkably prescient in just this way.

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  20. Aaron Garrett Avatar
    Aaron Garrett

    Thanks Eric. I don’t think I’m a pluralist either, for what it’s worth — I prefer to think of myself as an eclectic!
    Your revised sentence makes more sense. I think I’d have to see what “puzzle-solving” amounts to, or someone who is competent would have to see it. It seems like you are using a mildly disapproving evaluative term “puzzle solving” to create a dichotomy that may not be there.

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  21. Cynic Avatar
    Cynic

    Ah, great, another “pluralism” thread (by which we mean making the group of white males a bit larger, rather than smaller and hence non-pluralistic). Old habits die hard, I suppose.

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  22. Jon Cogburn Avatar

    Oh man, please don’t become this person: http://www.theonion.com/articles/area-man-criticizes-hazelnut-coffee-volvos-new-mex,106/ . I’m that person sometimes.
    Seriously though, I’m not comfortable telling people they shouldn’t read what they are reading.
    Here’s probably where we disagree: (1) I don’t think you have to displace canonical figures in order to increase gender and ethnic diversity, (2) I don’t think issues of exclusion provide much support for the claim that there aren’t other good reasons for canonical figures to be canonical. Certainly if the last two thousand some odd years hadn’t been one of ethnic and gender hegemony, the canon would be vastly more diverse. But I can’t see how that makes people currently in the canon not worthy of being there.
    I’m not being obstreperous. I just don’t get it.

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  23. Neil Avatar
    Neil

    Actually, Eric, I haven’t read your original post. I’m responding to this one. In it, Jon cites you saying that unless someone is conversant with more than one tradition, they’re not philosophically competent. You continue to maintain this in your responses here. I think that’s wrong (it entails that Socrates was not philosophically competent, unless you have a trivial idea of what constitutes traditions), but as I say, I don’t care about that. What I do care about is that your criterion provides a rationale for saying (of very many people, including me) that they are not competent in their professional work. I can’t see how this will serve anyone’s interests: it is poised to function identically to the claim “that’s not really philosophy” to serve to dismiss people’s work. After, “competence” is a minimum standard of acceptability. I am really surprised that you are promoting this.

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  24. Neil Avatar
    Neil

    I have now read Eric’s original post. I see no reason to retract anything I have said in that light. I might point one potential source of confusion: Eric uses “pluralism” as the name of an approach, and I simply mean an attitude of respect for approaches. It is clear that Eric uses “competence” to refer to a standard that is obligatory; hence the reference to shaming those who don’t live up to it. What he calls “competence” is a good thing. It’s one good thing among many others.

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  25. Cynic Avatar
    Cynic

    Jon,
    Not trying to be that guy, really, but just commenting on the direction that these conversations always seem to take. I love me some traditional canon (I’m a white male, mostly trained in history, Deleuzer, btw, with a strong interest of late in critical race theory).
    No, I’m not suggesting that we jettison the canon (obviously), but it’s hard to imagine that the canon would resemble anything at all what it is if history weren’t white supremacist and male-centric. This applies to figures, sure, but also more strongly to the issues themselves and their framing, as recent work in areas like (the indicatively named) “alternative epistemology” indicate (social epistemologies, feminist epistemologies, epistemologies of race, class, epistemologies of ignorance, etc). It seems to me that real pluralism resides there more so than in typical “analytic” and “continental” blendings, which often simply rearrange canonical prejudices by shuffling white male authors. For the most part anyway. My complaint is probably off topic to a sufficient degree, though.

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  26. Jon Cogburn Avatar

    No, I don’t think off topic. This is helpful to me at least.
    Probably a good place to note again Women’s Works, which is a very usable site for female authored papers for undergraduate teaching: http://women.aap.org.au/papers/ and Women of Philosophy, which is in some ways more helpful (just because there are so many people in subject areas such as logic and because there are links to the philosophers phil papers sites) at http://www.womenofphilosophy.com/.
    It would be a good start to have something similar for alternative epistemologies.

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  27. Charles R Avatar
    Charles R

    I’m less of a pluralist and more someone who appreciates listening to what gets other people excited, occasionally asking challenging questions to hear even more fascinating answers, and learning again and again how what little I know seems so much smaller in comparison. Maybe a few years back, I’d have said it was a humbling process, but lately I don’t think humility is exactly the right virtue about it. Too much internalized shame and shoulder-bowing just reinforces for others that it’s okay to push down on those shoulders more to help people along becoming virtuous. As for me, listening to the ardent is exciting and soul-wrenching, and sometimes so overwhelming to be around people very good at what they do that the only rational response I have is to cry.
    I think you are right that people can be competent and dismissive. Dismissing the puzzling and the amusing works pretty well for a lot of people who are much more competent with philosophy than I’ve managed to be, which is probably why I shouldn’t stay in it and just stick to something I enjoy that masquerades as philosophical conversation, like teaching. I guess I’m not sure what I wanted to learn for myself in getting involved in this, maybe work through some of the old insecurities about how well I do this thing we’re calling philosophy. As your amusement is the result, I’m okay with that. Let me help further.
    So this kid walks into a bar and asks the bartender for the house special. The bartender looks the kid in the eye and tells him the special is on the house, but only if the kid can prove he’s the right age. The kid demures and backs out of the bar. The bartender looks over at the regular and says, “Why do they always try?” The regular just shrugs, says “We were all young and naïve once. It’s the second time that actually hurts.”

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  28. Eric Schliesser Avatar

    Neil, I find your outrage strange because you keep misrepresenting what I claim. (Given that you have also read a lot of my blogs and find this one out of character, perhaps, you should also question if you are misreading me?) I explicitly state “that basic philosophical competence is not nearly coextensive with being a professional philosopher.” So, I am allowing all of us to be competent at our “professional work” (your term) while not having met the sufficiency standard for philosophical competence that I propose. I’d be happy to learn arguments against the standard (which you acknowledge is a good thing among many others). We can take pride in our professionalism(s) and contributions to our traditions while recognizing that we fall short in philosophical competence.
    And about shame: I intend my position not to be a means toward shaming others but a call on some people to start cultivating some sense of shame for themselves. I could see why you might be confused about the difference, but I am not proposing a naming/shaming or a policing device. (I understand fears over that, of course.)
    I am not sure I would endorse ‘respect for approaches’ as a general stance–I think we can only come to respect other approaches (or not) after we have understood them. But I think we do agree that our basic default stance should be a willingness to be receiptive toward alternative philosophical approaches.

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  29. Eric Schliesser Avatar

    Charles, I am not sure why you speak of my ‘amusement.’ But to be clear: I am not proposing pushing down; rather I propose more emulation of the admirable!

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  30. Neil Avatar
    Neil

    I’m not outraged, Eric. I think what you propose is a very bad idea, but it takes more than that to outrage me. Of course there is some chance I’m misreading you, but if I am you’ll correct me. So far you haven’t; not on the main point (you keep saying things as though they were intended to correct me, like pointing out that what you call competence is not coextensive with being a philosopher, when I am claiming that it is this dissociation of “competence” and being a philosopher that is the problem with your proposal). I said above, and I repeat now, that I think we should have a default attitude of respect for one another’s work. If I know nothing about what you do other than that it is taken seriously by a sub-community of philosophers, I should assume it is worthy of respect, regardless of its content (of course this is defensible). You are committed to something that implicates, if not quite entails, the denial of this default. If I know nothing about the content of x’s work except that x works only one tradition and has no specialist knowledge of anything else. I know that x is not philosophically competent. To say that x is not philosophically competent is to say that x is not deserving of a basic level of respect; at very least, that’s a strong implication. I think that any view that commits us to that is one that requires heavy duty justification, at very least. Even if had anything going for it, which frankly it doesn’t, we have very good reason to avoid introducing new grounds for disrespect.

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  31. Eric Schliesser Avatar

    I deny that my position has anything to do with your claim that: “To say that x is not philosophically competent is to say that x is not deserving of a basic level of respect.” In fact, it’s an utterly bogus analysis of my position. (If only because I believe that everybody deserves ‘respect’ in the sense that you use the word ‘respect.’)
    It’s fine with me that you wish to conflate professional competence with philosophical competence; I see nothing immoral about that conflation.

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  32. Jon Cogburn Avatar

    Could there be a linguistic confusion going on?
    I actually share Neil’s worries. (1) In American English if we say that someone is not competent, this at the very least conversationally implicates that they are incompetent. (2) In the vast majority of contexts in American (and as far as I understand, Australian) English basic competence is usually not that high of a bar. So calling someone incompetent is a pretty bad insult.
    I know that the German word for “hot” is not coextensive with the English word, which has a wider application. I wonder if something like that might be going on here?
    Again, contrast with Germany where to become basically competent you have to go through all sorts of classes and tests. With getting a drivers license it’s so egregious that thousands of German high school students find it much less of a headache to live with an American family for a year as part of a study abroad program, get their license over here, and then transfer the license back to Germany. Being an incompetent driver in Germany isn’t that bad a thing. You just haven’t completed your year long intensive class in drivers’ education yet. Or you’ve failed the exam twice and are about to take it a third time, which happens to lots of people.
    The way that the United States and Australia approach egalitarianism comes out in the fact that basic competence is something to be proud of, even as it is something more easily achieved. Australia goes even farther with an attitude that is summed up with the phrase “no tall poppies.” This is why their politicians have to really convincingly drink beers with working class people.* American politicians tend to have to visit bars, but can do it in a much more cursory manner, just stopping by raising the beer for the camera, and then leaving for the next fundraiser. This American faux populism explains why the egalitarianism no longer has any connection to economic concerns here. We’d be much better if the politicians actually actually had to hang out at the bar, down three or four pints with their constituents, all the while making entertaining conversation.
    Anyhow, I worry that you guys are talking past one another as a result of cultural norms that give rise to very different usage with respect to the word in question.
    Of course Richard Rorty said that a disagreement in meaning is simply an agreement not to continue the conversation. So I’m taking my own suggestion with a grain of salt.
    [*This was true fifteen years ago. I think it still is today, but maybe things have changed.]

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  33. Neil Avatar
    Neil

    That’s possible, Jon. In every dialectic of English with which I’m familiar, “x’s work is worthy of respect but does not rise to the level of competence” is highly infelicitous.

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  34. Charles R Avatar
    Charles R

    “(It’s amusing that you use an argument from pluralism against that.)”
    You earlier made the point that people who disagree with you need to provide arguments. Here, parenthetically, you state something you found amusing.
    I speak of your amusement because you did. If my offering is not worth the listen but the laugh, and this is what I must be told sotto voce, then clearly something else is going on here more than “making arguments” and having an old-fashioned analysis of concepts and language and ideas and whatnot.
    What kinds of things are admirable to you? I had this professor, a very gifted and talented professor, whom a lot of my fellow students emulated. He was often bringing in a variety of texts and thinkers into the classes that I didn’t quite expect to work (what do I know, though?). The approach definitely fits the model you’re discussing of someone conversant in multiple styles or methods, conversant and penetrating. The professor was challenging about the arguments and demanded keen ones from us and from the texts. The professor also laughed in our faces, put down folks who showed public weakness, and rarely came to us afterwards to show how not to be mocked.
    A different professor, also very talented and gifted, also brought in a wide variety of texts, materials, even those things one might call the non-philosophical into our analysis. This professor didn’t laugh at us or mock us, but he was at times ruthless in revealing the inconsistencies once he knew us better and we knew him better. He waited, so I observed, to learn what we could bear, and I always knew I could speak with him afterwards about the existential trauma of learning how bizarrely I held my ideas.
    Which is admirable? Which style of teaching is part of philosophical competency, or is neither relevant to competency? I am interested in what you say about respect (for an approach: but is this distinct from respect for a person?) only following upon the understanding. If we withhold respect and disrespect in this way, what is the mode of discourse and attitude towards people/approaches prior to understanding, then? Indifference? Apathy? Curiosity? What does it look like? How does it act?
    And, when it is amused, does it laugh out loud or softly?

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  35. Jon Cogburn Avatar

    I don’t know so much about dialects today, but when I lived in Europe as a kid you did get a lot of these kind of weird asymmetries between American English and the English spoken by Germans, Dutch (my mother’s family is Dutch), and the British.
    In the 1970s and early 80s if you tried to discuss the temperature of water with a German or comfort with respect to shoe size (Dr. Martins didn’t come in half sizes) with British people you got situations exactly analogous to what I think is going on now. I remember that there was a fair bit of literature about British medicine and how pain was spoken of by Americans and British people at the time. The expected stoicism of the Brits effected the denotation of their predicates (or, on the other hand, the wimpiness of Americans affected ours).
    Maybe with the internet and whatnot these differences have collapsed at this point. I don’t know. I don’t live in Europe any more. But I have immense respect for you and Eric (as more than competent philosophers, however one wants to use the phrase, and also as general interlocutors), and it’s hard for me to reconcile the above without it involving something like the Rortyan breakdown I’ve postulated. This is in addition to the normal thing that the internet does where we can’t read intended tone and this escalates levels of irritation.

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  36. Eric Schliesser Avatar
    Eric Schliesser

    To be professional is to be competent at something and to deserve respect for that. I don’t deny any of that.

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  37. Eric Schliesser Avatar
    Eric Schliesser

    Charles, you quote me partially. I wrote: “In particular, what I have in mind is that it is a bad sign of if one is incapable of having a philosophical conversation (say) with somebody that has mastery of any other well lit-space in philosophy. (It’s amusing that you use an argument from pluralism against that.)” I won’t try to explain why I found this amusing because it would just be autobiography (and that is far removed from conceptual analysis, etc.)
    It’s not true that I think people always need to provide arguments. I just thought that given Neil’s accuastions, it would have been salutary if he did provide arguments.
    You ask a lot of important questions most of which unrelated to my post. I’ll just say this: I think it is healthy to be inquisitive before one understands another–it strikes me that our exchange is a good reminder, for all the reasons why.

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  38. Eric Schliesser Avatar
    Eric Schliesser

    It’s possible that Neil and I are talking past each other. But I suspect, rather, we have a serious disagreement: I think he is conflating professional with philosophical competence (for political purposes–to keep the peace, etc.), and he thinks me saying so is appalling.

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  39. Jon Cogburn Avatar

    Yeah, that makes sense.
    I’m still thinking there’s some semantic slippage, both because I agree with both of you and because I think a lot of people have the same slippage in their own use.
    When some random person or extended family member says I’m a philosopher it makes me wince a little bit. I teach philosophy. I write about philosophers, but it seems really vain to put myself in their august company. Maybe some day. Who knows?
    On the other hand, if a hater were to say “he’s not really doing philosophy” (and there’s almost no distance from “crap philosophy” to not being philosophy) with respect to my research this would justifiably make me angry.
    I just see you focusing on the first set of intuitions and Neil focusing on the second. I think they are both important and don’t know if there is really a way to make the intuitions consistent.

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  40. Charles R Avatar
    Charles R

    Why are they not related?
    If having the ability to converse with someone is our measure for what you call philosophical competency, then we’d have to figure out what it means to converse well, doesn’t it? You aren’t saying the conversation is just a basic exchange of words, but demonstrative of something that’s a goal for conversation beyond that. Otherwise, the mere fact words are exchanged between persons will automatically count as ‘conversation’ so long as the words keep exchanging between persons. Jon quotes Priest arguing that these interactions with the past need to be pursued less as moves according to the rules governing how fast or how far the moves were made, more as breaking those rules for the fruitful or productive exploration of depths previously out-of-bounds. He then quotes you where you discuss the capacity to ask illuminating questions—our implicit metaphor of light—and dividing the good from the bad within multiple alternatives—without getting too far into the demarcation problems for what counts as philosophy, or what it means to acknowledge that astronomy is not astrology. Conversation that’s knowledgeable, as in your Copp example, demonstrates itself through how it translates the moves into different rule sets. Am I incorrect on any of this part?
    But translations of these kinds need fidelity, not just to the words but to the logics and structures underlying the words, don’t they? I noticed that when you felt misunderstood, you requested some way of getting at how the logics underlying your words appeared to Neil; you corrected what you took were poor readings, presumably because you have a better access to what you mean to say than any of us who are reading your words—although, if Priest is correct about what makes for even better philosophy, then sometimes even better philosophy discovers or constructs (both and neither, too) things not apparent to the thinkers themselves from the thoughts as they organized them. So, sometimes fidelity to the traditions is overcome through fidelity to persons, and sometimes fidelity to persons might mean having to see in their words what they are either unwilling or incapable of seeing, to fail at translating with precision in order to translate accurately, so that through these accumulations of errors we all together become better at spotting how our own faithfulness to our particular genealogy through which our words and ideas struggle to get out obscures what’s possible outside of ourselves. At this point, I think it’s not a bad thing to think aloud how one’s autobiography influences what one says. Interlocutors are people; getting to know an idea is getting to know a person, sometimes vulnerably.
    I mean, isn’t this the problem you’re having with those who hyperspecialize: they cannot talk with someone who doesn’t share their interests, and it becomes even more a problem if they demand others talk the way they do? The attitude Jon opens with is someone challenging him to justify his and others’ interests to them—it’s a bother that they should try to think like someone else thinks, to fail at getting outside of their habits until they get it right to the satisfaction of that someone else. They’d rather just stick to what they know, and the default position your argument works to undermine is that sticking to what we know is perfectly reasonable and perfectly acceptable. Is it right to think of your argument as making the capacity to translate from one tradition into another a skill or technique, so as a skill, it is something we can teach, reinforce through training, evaluate for success, and judge according to standards specific to the performance of that skill or technique and not according to the ethical or moral or social or political situating of or results from the performance? Isn’t it relevant why we want to understand other ways of doing philosophy, what it changes in us as living alongside others, when there are a lot of people who are saying that the practices of philosophy, historically and currently, work to exclude so many people, including themselves? But if we do think these other aspects of the performance of translation are important to doing the practices of philosophy well, then certainly it does become relevant to go beyond simply how successful we are at seeing and deploying the analogical structures through which we translate and begin incorporating how to be sincere, charitable, and solicitous in our conversational styles.
    I think this is what Patrick is suggesting earlier by quoting Rorty concerning our analysis of methodologies when the question “How should we then live?” comes up. He’s making great but unaddressed points. There is also something of this if we think of how your reference to Kuhn is combined with what Patrick wrote concerning methodological pluralism: sure, normal philosophy/science produces fruit, as does revolutionary science/philosophy, but what is the point of having one more method—this time a method of translating from one tradition into another and rightly dividing the good from the bad—if we’re still not interested in working backwards to the kind of concerns that motivate us to figure out this puzzle of living with others, all the others from the animals to the ecosystems? If, especially, how we apply this new method overrides our responsibilities in ways that haunt, traumatize, and disturb people who end up leaving the practice—the insensitivities towards race, class, gender, mental health, physical health, often discussed around here?
    I’m not saying you are, yourself, being insensitive. I don’t think one post needs to solve the entire world or address all of its problems. But I am saying that I do not think it is irrelevant to the idea of what should count as “basic competency” in philosophical practice how we treat one another. I do not think I am alone in this. Perhaps if we do consider as basic to the discipline a regard for others, and we teach the next generations that it’s not right to use argumentation like young dogs tearing one another part—if we stop using these combative metaphors within the context of arriving or finding or revealing truth—but consider this as something inseparable from getting arguments and ideas right, then maybe a lot of the reasons why philosophy is so lop-sided in its facility of vanity will evaporate, and we’d have a much healthier time of it. Fidelity to ideas is inseparable from fidelity to persons, so I’d like to think, and a fidelity that’s quick to crucify the person in order to get at the ideas and concepts they stand and die for doesn’t work to really perform the analysis intended.
    If there is an argument that conceptual analysis should be kept separate from regard for the people who bear these concepts, it’s one that undermines the value in doing philosophy for far too many people. Maybe, if the argument works as intended, that’s just beside the point anyway. Maybe, if that’s true, then we have our answer for why philosophical practice is so lop-sided between those who listen and those who don’t see the need.

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  41. Eric Schliesser Avatar

    Charles, I suspect I may like what you and Patrick want to do. Maybe next time you wish to engage with me, try don’t start with using ‘pluralism’ as a court of appeal.
    I don’t feel misunderstood, by the way.

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  42. Charles R Avatar
    Charles R

    Should I appeal to your sense of humor, then? ^_^

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