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9 responses to “More moral depravity on display in discussions of Gaza”

1. 

   Eric Winsberg

   July 22, 2014

   and of this (h/t David Hoyt):
   Abraham to YHWH: Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
   That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

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2. 

   M Lister

   July 22, 2014

   It’s a small thing, and doesn’t matter to the monsterousness of the idea behind it, but Rosembaum isn’t properly a “professor of law at NYU”. He’s a “senior fellow”, which can mean a lot of things, but here seems to me he hosts some sort of events that are “at” NYU (but perhaps not really sponsored by it- it was a bit murky.) NYU likes to do a lot of things like this, and its often a generous host, but I very much doubt that this is something anyone gets credits for, and if he teaches at all (I don’t think he does at NYU, from what I could tell) it’s essentially as an adjunct. My impression is that the relationship is a loose one, but he’s not a regular member of the law faculty.

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3. 

   Eric Winsberg

   July 22, 2014

   Thanks for that. I will update.

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4. 

   Chris

   July 23, 2014

   See:
   http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/07/thane_rosenbaum_s_wall_street_journal_op_ed_this_new_york_university_professor.html
   For more & similar sentiments.
   Surely, though, up to a point the populace should be held responsible for the actions of their government, at least insofar as they live in a democratic society. Perhaps if people felt more culpable for the (in)actions of their elected gov’ts abroad, people would take more of a stand against obviously unjust (in)actions made on their behalf. Disclaimer: NOT endorsing Rosenbaum’s view; just saying there must be some degree of accountability for citizens of democracies. Where the boundary is (in terms of the extent to which citizens should be valid subjects of blame/punishment for their government’s actions) is an interesting question, but I think there must be such a boundary – we must be culpable to some extent.
   On the other hand, in the case of Palestine/Israel I’m not even sure the election of Hamas can be viewed as a reprehensible or despicable thing at all. What other choice do Palestinians have? A truce in the current scenario (in terms of the one offered by Egypt) would mean leaving the illegal occupation in place and a continuing blockade of Gaza, almost unbelievably scant sentences for violence done by Israeli settlers to Palestinians (including children!) and so on.
   As a Palestinian, your options are peaceful acceptance of these things, or violence.
   You might think peaceful protest would work. But then e.g.
   http://972mag.com/israel-imprisons-a-non-violent-protest-leader-from-bilin/3929/

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5. 

   Eric Winsberg

   July 23, 2014

   Chris: I agree with everything you say. I even agree, to a point, that people should be held responsible for the actions of their government. But that point stops with state sanctioned punishment, especially violent punishment. Fourth Geneva Convention, Article 33. “No persons may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed.”
   (and fwiw: my post went up before the slate piece, I think. And it makes the same mistake about Rosenbaum’s status. weird).

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6. 

   Chris

   July 23, 2014

   Eric,
   Do you think that e.g. economic sanctions on a nation thus stand in violation of the Geneva convention? Would you say that such sanctions were a priori unjust as they often amount to the punishment of ordinary people for offenses they have not committed?(^)
   One might take that route, but I don’t think the alternative completely nonviable either. Perhaps there is an extent to which individuals are valid subjects of certain kinds of punishment for the actions of the states they are represented by (only properly when they are party to a genuine democracy, though). Would you rule this out as a possibility all together?
   I 100% agree about violent or otherwise overly severe punishment of course. But up to a point citizens of a democracy should certainly (we have agreed) be held responsible for the actions of their state; and perhaps, up to a point this entails they should be valid subjects of punishment. I’m really not sure about this, just interested to know what you think!
   \(^) Is something about the directness of the punishment at play here, perhaps? I.e. economic sanctions do not single out individuals for punishment, so are ok?\

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7. 

   Eric Winsberg

   July 23, 2014

   Hi Chris,
   Hmmm. In general, I am not a fan of economic sanctions, precisely because they punish ordinary people. But I guess I don’t think they neccesarily violate the GC. Though I do think they can. For example, I think it would clearly be crime for Israel to shut off electricity to Gaza. I guess what makes that a crime is that Israel has complete control over the flow in and out of Gaza. So, I think maybe I would distinguish between a de jure or de facto blockade and economic sanctions. So, its not just directness that is required, but maybe merely a degree of control over the ordinary people in question. So, it might be ok for us to impose sanctions against Iran (though I am against them) in a way that its not ok for Israel to impose sanctions against Gaza.

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8. 

   Tomatisblog.wordpress.com

   July 26, 2014

   “Israel has complete control over the flow in and out of Gaza. ” not true. Gaza has a border with Egypt as well

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9. 

   Eric Winsberg

   July 26, 2014

   Israel exerts enormous control over the gaza-egypt border whenever it wants to.

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