by Eric Schwitzgebel

Cultural moral relativism is the view that what is morally right and wrong varies between cultures. According to normative cultural moral relativism, what varies between cultures is what really is morally right and wrong (e.g., in some cultures, slavery is genuinely permissible, in other cultures it isn’t). According to descriptive cultural moral relativism, what varies is what people in different cultures think is right and wrong (e.g., in some cultures people think slavery is fine, in others they don’t; but the position is neutral on whether slavery really is fine in the cultures that think it is). A strong version of descriptive cultural moral relativism holds that cultures vary radically in what they regard as morally right and wrong.

A case can be made for strong descriptive cultural moral relativism. Some cultures appear to regard aggressive warfare and genocide as among the highest moral accomplishments (consider the book of Joshua in the Old Testament); others (ours) think aggressive warfare and genocide are possibly the greatest moral wrongs of all. Some cultures celebrate slavery and revenge killing; others reject those things. Some cultures think blasphemy punishable by death; others take a more liberal attitude. Cultures vary enormously on womens’ rights and obligations.

However, I reject this view. My experience with ancient Chinese philosophy is the central reason.


Here are the first passages of the Analects of Confucius (Slingerland trans., 2003):

1.1. The Master said, “To learn and then have occasion to practice what you have learned — is this not satisfying? To have friends arrive from afar — is this not a joy? To be patient even when others do not understand — is this not the mark of the gentleman?”

1.2. Master You said, “A young person who is filial and respectful of his elders rarely becomes the kind of person who is inclined to defy his superiors, and there has never been a case of one who is disinclined to defy his superiors stirring up rebellion. The gentleman applies himself to the roots. ‘Once the roots are firmly established, the Way will grow.’ Might we not say that filial piety and respect for elders constitute the root of Goodness?”

1.3. The Master said, “A clever tongue and fine appearance are rarely signs of Goodness.”

1.4. Master Zeng said, “Every day I examine myself on three counts: in my dealings with others, have I in any way failed to be dutiful? In my interactions with friends and associates, have I in any way failed to be trustworthy? Finally, have I in any way failed to repeatedly put into practice what I teach?”

No substantial written philosophical tradition is culturally farther from the 21st century United States than is ancient China. And yet, while we might not personally endorse these particular doctrines, they are not alien. It is not difficult to enter into the moral perspective of the Analects, finding it familiar, comprehensible, different in detail and emphasis, but at the same time homey. Some people react to the text as kind of “fortune cookie”: full of boring and trite — that is, familiar! — moral advice. (I think this underestimates the text, but the commonness of the reaction is what interests me.) Confucius does not advocate the slaughter of babies for fun, nor being honest only when the wind is from the east, nor severing limbs based on the roll of dice. 21st century U.S. undergraduates might not understand the text’s depths but they are not baffled by it as they would be by a moral system that was just a random assortment of recommendations and prohibitions.

You might think, “of course there would be some similarities!” The ancient Confucians were human beings, after all, with certain natural reactions and who needed to live in a not-totally-chaotic social system. Right! But then, of course, this is already to step away from the most radical form of descriptive cultural moral relativism.

Still, you might say, the Analects is pretty morally different — the Confucian emphasis on being “filial”, for example — that’s not really a big piece of U.S. culture. It’s an important way in which the moral stance of the ancient Chinese differs from ours.

This response, I think, underestimates two things.

First, it underestimates the extent to which people in the U.S. do regard it as a moral ideal to care for and respect their parents. The word “filial” is not a prominent part of our vocabulary, but this doesn’t imply that attachment to and concern for our parents is minor.

Second, and more importantly, it underestimates the diversity of opinion in ancient China. The Analects is generally regarded as the first full-length philosophical text. The second full-length text is the Mozi. Mozi argues vehemently against the Confucian ideal of treating one’s parents with special concern. Mozi argues that we should have equal concern for all people, and no more concern for one’s parents than for anyone else’s parents. Loyalty to one’s state and prince he also rejects, as objectionably “partial”. One’s moral emphasis should be on ensuring that everyone has their basic necessities met — food, shelter, clothing, and the like. Whereas Confucius is a traditionalist who sees the social hierarchy as central to moral life, Mozi is a radical, cosmopolitan, populist consequentialist!

And of course, Daoism is another famous moral outlook that traces back to ancient China — one that downplays social obligation to others and celebrates harmonious responsiveness to nature — quite different again from Confucianism and Mohism.

Comparing ancient China and the 21st century U.S., I see greater differences in moral outlook within each culture than I see between the cultures. With some differences in emphasis and in culturally specific manifestations, a similar range of outlooks flourishes in both places. (This would probably be even more evident if we had more than seven full-length philosophical texts from ancient China.)

So what about slavery, aggressive warfare, women’s rights, and the rest? Here’s my wager: If you look closely at cultures that seem to differ from ours in those respects, you will see a variety of opinions on those issues, not a monolithic foreignness. Some slaves (and non-slaves) presumably abhor slavery; some women (and non-women) presumably reject traditional gender roles; every culture will have pacifists who despise military conquest; etc. And within the U.S., probably with the exception of slavery traditionally defined, there still is a pretty wide range of opinion about such matters, especially outside mainstream academic circles.

[image source]
[Cross-posted at The Splintered Mind]

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19 responses to “Why I Deny (Strong Versions of) Descriptive Cultural Moral Relativism”

  1. p Avatar
    p

    Ok – so how about the philosophy or religious view of ISIS? Are they homey too? Do we find them ‘not alien’?

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  2. Eric Schwitzgebel Avatar

    P, my comparison is between large cultures, not between a culture and one particular subgroup of another culture. The U.S. also has fanatical groups who might perpetrate substantial violence were the conditions right.

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  3. Justin Vlasits Avatar
    Justin Vlasits

    Really interesting post! I found my experience with Greek philosophy to be very similar to yours, although I was never really sure if the reason I didn’t find it alien was that it exerted so much influence on modern Western culture.
    Another way of getting at your point, I think, is that we often take the moral views of portion of a population to stand metonymically for the whole.* Once we appreciate the constant struggle between very different ideas in any culture (and so there is no completely unreflective society, as in Bernard Williams “The Truth in Relativism”), it becomes harder to see any particular culture’s morality as being completely insulated from our own.
    *My own hypothesis for this is that we are still implicitly in the grip of crude Hegelian/Romantic theories of history and culture, on which the culture as a whole must have some “idea” that it represents or something like that.

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  4. Anon Grad Student Avatar
    Anon Grad Student

    Is the claim here that “if you push the limits of radicalism enough, we don’t see any remaining radical relativism between big enough cultures”? That claim isn’t analytic, but I don’t need convincing of that claim either.

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  5. p Avatar
    p

    Eric – but in the past, there were large cultures or regimes that also created cultures (though perhaps not one of billions people) that did behave – for prolonged period of times – in ways that were not unlike that of ISIS. Some were more temporary than others (like the Nazi culture or Khmer Rouge, each producing its own philosophical works too), but the Ancient and the medieval world is quite full of examples of warrior-like cultures that found it just OK to raise whole cities to the ground, and rape and kill large numbers of people on regular basis and do so with a feeling that it is OK -theologically and/or philosophically to do that. My point is, I guess, that we read what we find philosophically closer to us rather than what we do not – nobody bothers to read Mussollini’s defense of fascism as a philosophy, though it claimed to be so! Perhaps such cultures are not viable long-term, but is that a reason to exclude them from consideration?
    One last point: is your claim that in a sufficiently large and rich culture, there will be many moral outlooks, and since there are presumably only so many different ones, each culture will develop its own version of the more or less same outlooks over time?

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  6. A Chinese PhD student Avatar
    A Chinese PhD student

    While ancient China may ‘look’ very different from modern USA, Chinese philosophy (Confucianism, Mohism, Daoism) is as secular and humanistic as modern Western philosophy. That might explain why ancient Chinese philosophical texts are not alien to Americans. So perhaps it’s not a good example for Eric’s purpose.
    But I guess that another way to argue for descriptive universalism is that the moral code of every (ancient or modern) culture must be partially based on some humanistic principles or human needs. That part would be very similar across cultures. Once morality is based on purely secular and humanistic ideas, like the ones of Chinese philosophy and modern Western philosophy, moral codes in different cultures would become very similar.

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  7. Eric Winsberg Avatar

    Wouldnt the proponent of SDCMR reply as follows: yes, there is always a diversity of opinion in every culture about what is morally right, but the ways in which cultures vary is with regard to what of those views is hegemonic. Sure, there were opponents of slavery in ancient rome, but they held a minority view that held no sway, or at least insufficient sway to make a difference, such that its appropriate to say that -slavery was taken to be morally acceptable in ancient rome-. this doesnt mean that no one opposed that view. Similarly, there are people in this society who think it is morally unacceptable to vaccinate your own child.

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  8. Eric Schwitzgebel Avatar

    Thanks for all the interesting comments, folks!
    Justin: That sounds about right to me!
    Anon Grad: Well, that’s the easy way to defend my point! Too easy of course. So the issue would be where to fall within the range of moderate. My suggestion is that if you read the diversity of texts in ancient Chinese philosophy, you might find yourself moving more toward the universalist side and away from the relativist side than you had previously been, if you have a general tendency to see cultures as varying enormously in their moral structures.
    P: I think part of our disagreement here might be disagreement in what counts as a “culture”. “Nazi culture” is not a culture in my sense, though “mid-20th-century German culture” is a culture. There were many people who disagreed with the Nazi outlook. I’d agree with Eric W., though, that the outlook that held the political power is rather different in attitudes toward racism and military conquest than the outlook that is politically dominant in the 21st century U.S. (this isn’t to say that the politically dominant outlook here entirely lacks racist and aggressive strands).
    Chinese PhD: I think I more or less agree with that, but I’m not sure that adding religion changes that much. The U.S. is a pretty religious culture in some ways, for example. This has an attitude on a certain range of (especially metaphysical) beliefs, but perhaps not a huge effect on overall moral outlook.
    Eric W.: I think I’d agree with that, but I would regard that as a pretty substantial retreat from standard formulations of SDCMR, unless “hegemonic” is read very strongly; and I’d add that the diversity of opinion is often over a similar range of issues, so that we can find variants of familiar outlooks everywhere, even if in some places one is more dominant than another.

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  9. Eric Winsberg Avatar

    I’m not so sure its such a retreat. The claim is that ” cultures vary radically in what they regard as morally right and wrong.” Suppose you fell asleep for a hundred years and when you woke up you found that the people around you held that it was equally morally wrong to destroy someone’s online avatar as it was to kill them IRL. (And let’s stipulate that this only due to a change in culture, not due to changes in the underlying properties of online avatars.) I don’t know about you, but I would think “Wow, our two cultures vary radically with regard to the moral status of online avatars. Where I come from, destroying someone else’s avatar makes you kind of a douche, but that’s about it.” And I don’t think I would change my opinion about this just because I found out that back in 2015, there were some ‘weirdos’ arguing for the claim that online avatars had the same moral status as humans.

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  10. Eric Winsberg Avatar

    Put another way: the claim of SDCMR was never that cultures vary radically with respect to what some of their members can conceive as being morally right and wrong.

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  11. Joe Avatar
    Joe

    Eric S., here’s another way of putting Eric W’s complaint: the thesis “cultures vary radically in what they regard as morally right and wrong” can be falsified very easily if we simply deny that cultures can properly be said to “regard” anything as morally right or wrong (this might just be presupposition-failure, not falsity, but…. whatever). If even minor disagreement over slavery means that ancient Roman culture had no settled opinion on slavery, in spite of the fact that the dominant opinion undergirds deep, pervasive social practices, then it’s starting to look like no culture of any significant size could be said to “regard” anything as right or wrong.
    But surely this is an uninteresting way of attacking the view. We need to give the relativist a conception of a culture’s “regarding something as being right/wrong” which has even a remote chance of actually being instantiated in the actual world, THEN see if the thesis is at all true, empirically. Otherwise, we’re inviting a simple rejoinder: “OK, you can have the idea of ‘regarding as morally wrong’, and I’ll redefine my view as the view that cultures differ radically in what they schmegard as morally wrong. ‘Schmegard’ is triggered when there’s significant cultural consensus which results in powerful and widespread social conventions. Moreover, I think that what a culture schmegards as right/wrong is very important and philosophically significant.”

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  12. Eric Schwitzgebel Avatar

    Eric W.: You’re not assuming genuinely conscious avatars, I think, or that one’s livelihood depends on them or something? So maybe we differ empirically a bit. My guess is that it would be unlikely to find a large, major culture in which this random-seeming thing were a major moral violation without there being some familiar-seeming story about it. My thought is that when you go to what is maybe our best actual case for a distant culture with a large written philosophical tradition, that’s exactly what you don’t see.

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  13. Eric Schwitzgebel Avatar

    Joe/Eric: Right, I agree that if we let any old minor disagreement count, then the thesis loses all force. On the other hand, with Moody-Adams, I want to resist the mistake of thinking that there is a single moral view in a culture, the view of the people with the most social power or the authority to state the official line. So I want to consider only major strands. How to define “major” is of course a challenge, but at first pass I hope it’s clear enough. Confucianism, Mohism, and Daoism in ancient China, for starters — but I’d also like to allow a diversity of shared views among women and slaves, too.

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  14. Eric Schwitzgebel Avatar

    I don’t know much about ISIS, but lots of cultures have radical subgroups that gain power for a while.

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  15. Eric Winsberg Avatar

    I guess I’m not sure what to make of a line of response like that. It strikes me as question begging. In other words, if the response to any purported example of SDCMR is to define it away as a temporary radical subgroup, I don’t see why the thesis in question is deserving of the letter “D” in it. Its not a descriptive thesis unless I have some thesis-independent way of identifying a genuine culture and of identifying “what they regard as morally right.” ISIS looks to me like a cohesive enough group with a coherent enough belief system to count as a data point. (that’s why I linked to this article, because i think it makes just that point.) If what disqualifies them is that they are “radical” then the thesis is just true by definition, and it no longer sounds like a descriptive thesis.

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  16. Eric Schwitzgebel Avatar

    Eric: I agree that it would be analytic rather than descriptive if being radical disqualified a group from being a culture. I also think that if one slices “cultures” narrowly, then my claims become less plausible. What I really had in mind were very large, very durable groups that one doesn’t easily enter or exit by shifting one’s opinion, like China through the Warring States period or the U.S. over the past 50 years.

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  17. p Avatar
    p

    Eric – I take it that 50 years does not show that a state is, in a given form, particularly durable. And are not all states such that they are not easily exited by shifting one’s opinion? In fact, are not many totalitarian regimes precisely such that they are not to be exited at all? In any case, what do you make of the Roman Empire? It lasted for about a thousand years, it enslaved, killed, and raped large populations, burnt cities to the ground and none of that was really ever viewed as anything but OK. Similarly, in Indian – just saw this article – http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-31698154 – isn’t that a chilling, completely alien perspective which is widespread and felt normal or accepted across the majority of the society (that is the whole point why it is so chilling). It is a culture and, one could argue, has lasted for more than 50 years, and it is pretty large.

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  18. Eric Schwitzgebel Avatar

    p: Both ancient Roman culture and modern Indian culture are the types of large, enduring cultures that I have in mind (unlike ISIS, which others have raised in comments), so I won’t try to weasel out in that way! My thinking here is that it’s a mistake to treat either official state doctrine or majority opinion as definitive of the moral range of the culture’s attitudes. Not all Romans were cool with slaving, killing, and raping — as you can see expressed in the attitudes of philosophers during the period. The diversity of moral opinion within Roman culture about such topics, at least to judge by the written philosophical works available, was large. I do think that the 21st century U.S. tends to be less okay (at least officially and in academic circles) with slavery and rape than has been common in many cultures, so those are some of the better cases for difference, I think, than some other issues. But broadly, I’d make a similar point here as the one I made about ancient China: Reading Seneca, Cicero, Epictetus, etc., does not plunge one into a radically alien perspective; most of the issues and debates cover similar ground. I don’t know as much about India, but I’d guess that the case is similar.

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